The Year of Moving Forward

The Year of Moving Forward
At our 4 person wedding reception in DC

Monday, June 23, 2008

About marriage

I am involved all day for the next few day taking some Incident Command courses from Homeland Security this week. Going well so far. this is ICS 300 and 400...great training.

The Conservative (most were appointed by Republican governors, including conservative hero Ronald Reagan)California Supreme Court that allowed equality in marriage to begin has been asked to keep the initiative to ban the marriages off the November ballot. Story

If these guys married, why shouldn't gays of today. These are 4th century Christian martyrs Saint Sergius and Saint Bacchus who were united in the rite of Adelphoesis, or brother-making, considered an early form of religious same-sex marriage, according to John Boswell, noted historian. In this picture, Jesus is the "best man" overlooking the two. This 7th century painting is in the public domain. The links are wiki.

Here is a celebration of marriages from California. this will warm your heart.

And here is Bernard and Nicks wedding from 2006 in London. Nice.


Anonymous said...

Warm your heart? Made me want to puke.

And your 'noted historian' John Boswell was gay. His writings were a way to attempt to make it "okay" to be gay.

Also, the rite of Adelphoesis is a spiritual union. Look it up. It has nothing to do with flesh and blood unions.

In Boswell’s view homosexual relationships under the Pax Romana in which Christianity was born and raised, were “loving, monogamus, consensual.” They were normal. And yet the Holy Spirit prompted the apostles to condemn such “normal” relationships in the strongest possible terms. The apostles observed the sexually permissive culture around them, and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, condemned it as antithetical to a life of devotion to Christ. Believers were therefore forbidden to accept it and participate in it. Quite frankly, it explains the intensity of Paul’s Romans 1 homily portraying homosexuality as the paradigm of rebellion against God.

Its no wonder that any attempts to discuss homosexuality with gays using the Bible as a compass is nearly impossible. Their belief system is primarily inlfuenced by CHRISTIANITY, SOCIAL TOLERANCE AND HOMOSEXUALITY, Boswell's last book, and SECONDARILY influenced by scripture.

Although the secondary sphere of influence is scripture, it is strikingly minimal, opting only to “red letter” their positions and even further limiting scripture to “red letter love” texts.

You cannot pick and choose what the Bible says. You have to read it all.

Anonymous said...

Cool! I have ICS100, but still need to do 200 and 700 for the county requirements for firefighters. They're both online courses (thank goodness).

Of course the marriage videos are delightful. Not something Glenn and I would do at this point, though we applaud those who demand it. But we're old farts, and not only just old farts, but old farts curmudgeonly repelled by the whole mean-spiritedness. Civil unions, absolutely. Saves a lot of time and effort trying to cover all bases with joint ownership with survivorship.

(And I also owe you an email, Joe. The last four days have gotten me way far behind. Sorry about that.)

Joe said...

Rev. Campbell,

I have read the whole Bible, and if you can't pick and choose:
1. Thou shall not kill. Yet our president has sent our young people to Iraq to do just that. Our state attorney general wants to kill people right and left.
2. Thou shall not bear false witness. I refer you to our president.

3. Lesser instructions would have us not eating shellfish, wearing blended fabrics, or throwing a football made of pig skin. Also there would be a lot of women being stoned (an example of the religious teachings countering their own 10 commandments).

And your interpretation of Paul's letter to the Romans is far off the mark.

Wayne, you are right is is cool. People who have been in love and partnered for over 50 years getting married. Wonderful. You can see it in their eyes.

I did send you an email to your work about termites, did you see it?

Joe said...

Oh yeah, Wayne. Yeah, I have done ICS 100, 200, 700 and 800 as online courses. Good training for us all, but especially for firefighters.

Anonymous said...

Joe, the Law of the Old Testament was replaced by The Gospel (Life, death, burial, and resurrection) of Jesus. That does not mean we ignore the 10 Commandments, but many of the 'lesser instructions' no longer apply.

While I do not agree with the war, and you did not see me taking up for the president, even God himself sent his own people in to battle often on his behalf. David, "a man after God's own heart" KILLED a philastine. It is one of the most poplular stories in the Bible.

But should one kill - NO
Should one lie - NO
Is homosexuality okay - NO

Pauls letter are probably the most straight forward writings in the Bible.

You also failed to acknowledge that the 'noted historian' your referred to is actually a homosexual himself. What would you expect him write? The homosexual communtiy, as I stated above, tends to make the Bible secondary to the writings of people like Boswell. This is where your theology is getting so messed up.

Joe said...

Rev. Campbell,

I agree with you 100% about the Old Testament being replaced.

But about homosexuality, I do not. For instance, about Paul and his writings, I offer the following, which I copied and pasted from my own testimony, written in letter form to a friend several years ago.

I hope that as you read this your heart is open to God and his teaching, and that you will get a better understanding of the writings of Paul. And see that God does not consider homosexuality in itself as evil, just homosexual acts when "mis-used."

Sorry, too, I tried to use italics for the quotes but I can't get the thing to accept my html. I just put them in parantheses.

Even more commonly used as a condemnation of homosexuality are Paul’s writings in Romans 1:21-28 (because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up into vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not covenant.). Briefly, Paul is addressing people who refuse to acknowledge and glorify God (v. 21), who began worshiping idols (v. 23), and were more interested in earthly pursuits than spiritual pursuits (v. 25), and gave up their natural, or innate, passion for the opposite sex in an unbounded search for pleasure (v. 26-27) and lived lives of covetousness, malice, envy, strife, slander, disrespect for parents, pride and hatred of God (v. 29-31). The model of homosexuality that Paul addresses is associated with idol worship or temple prostitution and people who in their search for earthly pleasure broke away from their natural sexual orientation and participated in promiscuous sex with anyone available. He does not address people whose natural orientation is homosexuality, or their willingness to enter into committed relationships.

The last two verses that are often used against gays are 1Corinthians 6:9-10 (Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.), and 1 Timothy 1:10 (for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine). The Greek word in 1 Corinthians used to refer to homosexuals is malakoi, and is translated “effeminate” in the King James version. Some theologians think this word, taken in the context of the time it was written, meant soft, like a woman, or traits like vanity and self indulgence, traits unacceptable to men at the time. Others carry it further, thinking the term refers to male prostitutes. Another Greek word used here and in Timothy is arsenokoitai, a combination of two words meaning “bed” and “male.” In other writings of the time that discuss homosexual sex, or one of the partners in gay sex, this word was never used, and other words were used. Paul would not have needed to resort to this ambiguous compound word, which other writers used to describe instances when one male used his superior power or position to take sexual advantage over another. Newer versions of the Bible seem to suggest that to commit the sin referred to in 1 Corinthians one must use homosexuality in an aggressive or offensive way (NIV - “homosexual offender” and NRSV - “sodomite” and as we have seen, the men of Sodom were the ultimate example of sexual aggression and oppression.).

These verses have been mistranslated, misinterpreted, misapplied, and mistakenly singled out as proof that God does not approve of loving and committed same sex relationships, where in fact, none of those verses address the subject, rather they address particular sexual acts committed by certain people who have turned away from God, or who are seeking favor from other gods.

End of that portion of my testimony.

I can predict your response. You will say that I am twisting scripture, yet what I am really doing is researching language and looking at scripture as it was written to apply to the people and situation at the time.

Paul was in no way addressing gay or lesbian people in loving and committed relationships.

Anonymous said...

Joey...there is obviously no hope for you dude.
God BLESS YOU come judgement day.

Christine McIntosh said...

Joe, your response pre-empts what I was going to say, so I'll just add my tuppenceworth as a straight, married Christian with two straight, married sons, and as someone whose lifelong study has been the use of language (and had to wrestle with Latin translation for 2 years at Uni):

Scripture is primarily words. Words are capable of much interpretation - especially poetry or something written in a dead language.

The sooner we stop using words to justify prejudice the better. The sooner we stop trying to point out difference and instead embrace diversity the better. The sooner we remember that a kinda clear Scriptural command is "Love one another" the better.

I don't understand homophobia.

Joe said...

Thanks Chris...the voice of reason. Hey by the way, can I publish that picture of your friends?

Joe said...


It seems that you do not study scripture. You must just take the word of those who take the words of those who taught them. Yeah I know I repeated myself, because that is how most so called Christians today learned, taking the word of somebody up front, or on TV, who did the same,rather than studying as Chris has to a large degree and I have to a lesser degree.

What an opportunity you have missed to learn more about God. It is not too late.

Christine McIntosh said...

Joe, I'd be happy for you to use the pic - they're the kindest, most decent guys I know and I've never heard them say an unkind word about anyone. I'm proud of them.

Anonymous said...

Joe, what do you think you are doing? You are not looking at the scripture. You are taking the words of GAY "historians" and GAY churches and GAY ministers and taking what they say as Gospel.

You ignore what the scripture plainly says about unnatural love and 'men lying with men'. You also seem to ignore the obvious ways in which our bodies are created, specifically for reproductive purposes which two men or two women can't do.

It is funny to me that there are scriptures in the Bible that specifically condemn homosexuality, but not one single verse that even comes close to saying it is okay in the eyes of God. There is not one.

Chris's comments about "The sooner we stop using words to justify prejudice the better. The sooner we stop trying to point out difference and instead embrace diversity the better" is all about tolerance. That is what is wrong with our society. We want to ignore the laws of God and just let everyone "love one another" and do whatever is right in their own eyes.

That is why our country is in the shape that it is in.

Joe said...

Yes Sherri that is what I am doing, almost. When I hear an opinion or a teaching from a gay or straight historian or minister, I study it and analyze it. I don't just accept things at face value. That is what kept blacks and women oppressed for so long. That is how much of Christianity has flourished through the centuries, by oppression of minorities and those who disagree or want to further explore God's love. Fortunately there have been and will always be those who want to seek a deeper understanding of scripture and God.
And yes, there are places where same sex relationships are mentioned in the Bible in a positive way.

Christine McIntosh said...

Erm ... it was Jesus who said "love one another". Don't point out that he wasn't meaning sexually - I'm not daft. But the kind of bitter prejudice that some people who call themselves Christians show towards other human beings is, in my mind, intolerable. And I'd rather live in a tolerant society than a bigoted one, whether it's my own country or yours.